Cutting Through The Crap

Monday, June 1, 2009

Irony


I have nothing to say about the murder of Dr Tiller that hasn't been said and responded to at all levels of rhetoric, on both sides. To me it's symbolic of a much larger issue. I'll just ask a question which I'm sure has been asked elsewhere, too, and probably more eloquently. It's directed at those who, whether they excuse it or not, refuse to call the act one of "domestic terrorism."

Let's imagine a Jewish synagogue, recipient of numerous threats from Islamic radicals. This, of course, happens regularly, and increases when Israel does something in Gaza. What if, last Friday night or Saturday morning (which is when services are held) such a Muslim radical entered the sanctuary and killed a congregant, in the name of saving or avenging Palestinian lives? Would anyone refrain from calling that an act of domestic terrorism? Would we be rejoicing, and heading to websites saying he had it coming? Or good riddance? Other religious radicals would, for sure. But would, you know, "we?"

I'm saddened by everything about it. Both sides of the arguments, the women involved, the doctors, the families, the protesters and activists of all persuasions, the responses. As President Obama has said, there are probably a few things on which all parties could agree if they'd stop shouting. But the demonization by each side of the other, the refusal to acknowledge the humanity and heartbreak of those on both sides is but one of several apparently unhealable wounds in our body politic, the sum total of which is such that we are slowly and inexorably destroying ourselves.

This incident is but an especially dramatic example of the ongoing and ever-increasing (voting for change notwithstanding) and ever more vitriolic and irreconcilable political decay of our country, the ultimate result of which will be self destruction. Neither party is guiltless. But what we've seen since the recent election is, to my eye anyway, unprecedentedly unhinged paranoia and rhetorical excess from the right. These self-described patriots and singular lovers of this country are the ones most responsible, if not for this particular incident, for the devaluation of the democratic ideals that once could have saved us: open honest debate, search for common ground, willingness to give a little in the greater goal of preserving our democracy.

Oh, the irony.
.

76 comments:

Not Anon said...

I know you read andrew sullivan, but I was catching up there right after reading this post and saw this http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2009/06/yglesias-award-nominee.html

Apparently you and Michelle Malkin agree on something.

Sid Schwab said...

N A: I guess all things are possible. I saw that, too; I also saw, somewhere to which I haven't been able to return because I can't find it in my history, that she might have actually been speaking, ironically, ironically; as in, liberals call this terrorism but not William Ayers... If she meant it straight, then good for her.

Not Anon said...

Funny you say that, cause just minutes ago I saw the follow up on her possible intentions. Wouldn't surprise me either.

SeaSpray said...

This act was wrong..plain and simple. He had no right to murder this man.

pro life people have nothing to do with this.

The irony of killing someone to prove something or because you are angry at that person for murdering when you are pro life..makes no sense..other than psychwack.

Did I hear stats right about Dr Tiller? He performed 60 THOUSAND *late term* abortions?

I thought the procedure was *rare*?

Barbaric!

Extremely sad.

Spiny Norman said...

"Did I hear stats right about Dr Tiller? He performed 60 THOUSAND *late term* abortions?"

Childbirth is a dangerous business, in statistical terms, and it happens frequently.

How many pregnancies do you think happen in a year in this country? How many of those do you think go horribly awry, threatening the life of the mother, or with the certain result of a birth terrible beyond imagining?

And how many abortions per year is 60,000 divided by the thirty years of the clinic's existence?

Remember: you may not agree with it, but the (1) law specifies that late-term abortions can be performed only when medically necessary, and (2) what Tiller was doing was legal. The alternative is forced childbirth, without exemptions for the health of the mother, enforced by the police power of the state.

Spiny Norman said...

I'd also add that I've no idea of whether the 60,000 figure is accurate. Given the present atmosphere, I think it would be pretty irresponsible to wave a figure like that around unless I was pretty certain I understood where it came from, that it was accurate, that I understood exactly what it counted.

Frank Drackman said...

Dr. Tiller was no different from Jeffrey Dahmer. Ok, yeah he was, Dahmer didn't get paid...
And picked on people his own size, and at least didn't go around braggin about his deeds...
Either way, dude didn't deserve to get shot.

Frank

rlbates said...

I find it sad & ironic that "prolifers" could find anyway to justify the death of a human being.

Frank Drackman said...

I find it sad and ironic that "pro-choicers" could find away to justify the death of millions of human beings.

Spiny Norman said...

So glad that you have a direct line on truth and justice. But... if you really believe what you are typing, the situation is dire. Why aren't you out blockading a clinic RIGHT NOW? See, it's obvious that you're not serious. If you were, you'd have far higher priorities than hanging out in the comment threads of a relatively low-traffic blog. mean, doing that would make you the worst sort of moral coward.

Right?

Or maybe your beliefs are not so certain as your bluster. Maybe you're just trolls.

Sid Schwab said...

"Low traffic." Ouch. But then, the truth always hurts.

Adjuster Mike said...

Well, Norman, I'm not sure I agree. I am pro-choice. That being said, I don't think someone who is pro-life has to be a radical to truly believe in what they say. I believe the war in Iraq should be over, but I"m not out blockading my local military base.

This is the problem with both the far left and the far right. Often, we spit out so much spew and hate that we can't have an honest discussion and disagree without being hateful and start the kiddie game of name calling.

Frank Drackman said...

You're right... I don't really want to spend the rest of my life in jail... but not any more cowardly than y'all who claim Bush and Cheney are War Criminals but don't anything but yap on low traffic blogs...
Anyway, abortion's the only thing thats keepin the Conservative movement afloat...

Anonymous said...

The Blogger wrote, in part:

"But what we've seen since the recent election is, to my eye anyway, unprecedentedly unhinged paranoia and rhetorical excess from the right. These self-described patriots and singular lovers of this country are the ones most responsible, if not for this particular incident, for the devaluation of the democratic ideals that once could have saved us: open honest debate, search for common ground, willingness to give a little in the greater goal of preserving our democracy.

Oh, the irony."

Perhaps you should re-read some of your prior posts. You're not a "RWS", but fit into the catagory of "LWL" (Left Wing Loon).

A1

Sid Schwab said...

A1 (and thanks for that): fair enough, on one level. I rant and rave. There are, however, differences. When I criticize, I have facts to which I refer. Not only that, I've criticized many on the left. Nor, unlike the RWS™, am I calling for revolution, stopping paying taxes, or conjuring up paranoid fantasies out of think air. I think George Bush was a terrible president and that virtually everything he did was wrong. I've never said he was deliberately trying to destroy the country. I don't make stuff up. I don't incite violence. I don't repeat, over and over, statements that have been thoroughly debunked.

And the most important difference, of course, is that I'm not on the airwaves with millions of listeners/watchers, influencing opinion and stoking outrage. Nor, I'm betting, can you come up with examples of my "unhinged paranoia" that in any way compares to Glenn Beck's concentration camps, Rush Limbaugh's "he hates white people," or Bill O'Reilly's.... well, Bill O'Reilly's everything. Mostly, his breathtaking ability to contradict himself in everything he says. Decrying ambush journalism while doing it himself. Claiming when he's criticized his free speech is being violated. Really, the guy is deeply disturbed; a classic bully.

So, yeah, like people who blog, I say stuff. If you have examples of where I've misstated facts, or if you can prove I've never qualified what I've said or given credence to other points of view, feel free. Use of the word "loon" suggests fact-free opinions, devoid of any basis in reality. It bespeaks inability to confirm or explain a position. Examples?

Sid Schwab said...

"think air." Unintended, but not bad.

Sam Spade said...

A1 -- The Republican Party is almost purely reactionary at the moment. When they were in power they spoke sanctimoninously about how the Dems were too low to give "up or down votes", but since 2006 the Repubs have set a record for filibustering. Your leading light openly wishes for Obama to fail, though it would cause misery for millions of Americans. The arguments you all are making against Sotomayor are outrageous: menstruation, racism, she saves too little money, her diet is wrong, her pronounciation of her own name is obnoxious. Find any mainstream criticism of Alito or Roberts that approaches this. Your side is cowed by terrorists, and your reaction is to endorse torture.

Can you imagine a Republican today complaining about the military industrial complex as did Ike? You all have abandoned your values. Who advocates for the small businessman now? Who advocates for fiscal responsibility? Who advocates for main street values? You guys talk a good game, but in practice you advocate for big business, a military we cannot afford, tax cuts for the wealthy we cannot afford, and you moan about how your Christian values are under attack, as though Christians are at disadvantage in this country. You whine about how the media is biased against you, though it is owned by the largest corporations in the world now. You blythely use the fruits of science and technology while screaming about how the scientists have formed a cabal to destroy your values and country. You have zero dignity.

Here's a riddle for you. What is another name for a strong executive, strong church, and strong corporations, unified in common interest, like sticks bound together to make for a stronger axe?

Anonymous said...

Sam Spade wrote in part:

"Here's a riddle for you. What is another name for a strong executive, strong church, and strong corporations, unified in common interest, like sticks bound together to make for a stronger axe?"

Capitalism!

A1

Anonymous said...

Spiny Norman said...
So glad that you have a direct line on truth and justice. But... if you really believe what you are typing, the situation is dire. Why aren't you out blockading a clinic RIGHT NOW?

awesome point. though to be fair, it makes me wonder why i have not done more to protest prop H8. though to be fair [again, but this time to myself], i live in canada, and i did make a video for it on youtube. . .

oops, this is egomosperificio

sid, i hope you don't stop this blog anytime soon. if you're ever in toronto, please let me know so i can buy you a pint-->hell, frank, you're also invited!

Anonymous said...

"Here's a riddle for you. What is another name for a strong executive, strong church, and strong corporations, unified in common interest, like sticks bound together to make for a stronger axe?"

The Fascist Republican Party!

EugeneInSanDiego

egomosperficio said...

sorry to intrude again,

just wanted to remind all those educated MDs that bitch about pro-choice folk-->GOD IS THE BIGGEST ABORTIONIST EVER!

*maybe someone could shoot him. . . oops, sorry-->HIM. . .god knows/he knows he deserves it for all the crap he's inflicted upon us. . .*

Sid Schwab said...

egomo: I'd love to visit Toronto. It might happen some day. Montreal, even more, if you don't mind the insult.

And whereas you're right about god/gods causing more abortions than men, don't forget he also like to wait until they're born, and then smite them. As in the first born (and innocent) Egyptian males. That's biblical. The millions that die of starvation every month, well, I guess that's because they don't read the bible.

Easy as Fission said...

BO made a statement about the death of St. Tiller Sunday night. So far, not a word about one of his soldiers murdered by a Muslim in a political attack.

Coincidence? I doubt it. Tiller was a high priest of liberalism, the dem religion.

The soldier was just an employee.

Bush still writes and visits vets. BO seems not to care one whit.

--Easy as Fission

Spiny Norman said...

Paging Easy as Fission...

Abraham Lincoln left a message for you: Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt.

Sid Schwab said...

E as F: Bush, who sent the troops to an unnecessary war and failed for years adequately equip them, never funded their needs on return. Obama has. Bush refused to let coffins be seen on return to Dover. Obama has. Bush was good at producing tears. Obama has produced help.

I wish he'd said something about the recruiter, too.

egomosperficio said...

Sid Schwab said...
egomo: I'd love to visit Toronto. It might happen some day. Montreal, even more, if you don't mind the insult.

And whereas you're right about god/gods causing more abortions than men, don't forget he also like to wait until they're born, and then smite them. As in the first born (and innocent) Egyptian males. That's biblical. The millions that die of starvation every month, well, I guess that's because they don't read the bible.

yes, montreal is a gem.

on the god thing, he also is has no problem screwing with those who follow his nonsense. i mean really, did moses really deserve to be denied the promised land just for his silly peccadillo *?

*of course, reality forces me to point out that there never was a jewish exodus from egypt. but hey, once you accept a talking snake and a hydro-genocide, anything is possible. . .

Easy as Fission said...

Sid:

The "unnecessary war" would be the one that BO's Sec of State voted for. I guess she was a bad choice?

Spineless Norman:

Rowr! What an insightful comment! A little truth on a liberal blogs brings out personal attacks. But no intelligence.

Easy as Fission

Frank Drackman said...

The Unnecessary War that's killed 121 Americans since Barak put his left hand on the Koran...But don't worry, the Afghanistan Offensive hasn't even got warmed up yet...

Adjuster Mike said...

Frank, you're reading the statistics wrong... It should be read 4,308 brave American soldiers lost their lives since an irresponsible GWB tried to get revenge for his father's mistake.

That's like saying, "since I drove your Camaro hot and blew up the engine, it sure hasn't run right since you took it back."

or

"Hell yeah I burned my house down while being an irresponsible dick, mister fire fighter, but your friggan fire trucks trashed my lawn!!!"

Frank, you're educated. I now you understand perspective.

Sid Schwab said...

E a F: Setting aside the fact that your statement and conclusion are, to put it kindly, entirely illogical, irrelevant, and ignorant of several facts that have been aired and errored countless times since the campaigns, they neither address nor change the facts that the war was unnecessary and that Bush indisputably and tragically ignored the needs of the troops. I am, of course, shocked and disappointed.

Easy as Fission said...

"entirely illogical, irrelevant, and ignorant of several facts that have been aired and errored countless times since the campaigns"

So she didn't vote for the war?

Even HuffPo knows she did!

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/01/13/hillary-clinton-defends-2_n_81261.html

Are you saying, then, that BO hired a Sec State who can't even read? That doesn't seem so smart.

--Easy as Fission

Sid Schwab said...

Jebus fricking cripes, E a F. It seems adding a name didn't elevate your game at all. Is this about who voted for the war? Okay, you got me there. I had no idea. You're the first to mention it (other than about a billion others). Eye-opening and game-changing, with a link and everything. Yep, she voted for the war, and he appointed her. Here's what I'd say about that response to my post, if I were willing to take the time:

entirely illogical, irrelevant, and ignorant of several facts that have been aired and errored countless times since the campaigns

Easy as Fission said...

Gosh, you're testy! You brought up the war, and tried to make it all the fault of Pres Bush. I'm just reminding you that Bush was not alone in the decision. Congress voted for it...including you-know-who.

Still no statement from BO about the soldier killed by a Muslim terrorist? What does that say for him?

--Easy as Fission

Frank Drackman said...

Hey Mike, I think you ripped me off on my last insurance claim...
OK, I know you'll blame bush right up to the moment you die when a Turban Headed A-rab crams a vial of Anthrax down your throat...we DID deserve it afterall for kickin their ass at Perseopolis in 1252... but one thing we can agree on...
Women in Mugshots.... HOT, well at least hotter than in your typical photo... Well Done, Sir!

Adjuster Mike said...

Frank, it's not that I ripped you off, I just couldn't pay you top dollar for all those stained up porno mags. I mean the pages were all stuck together... :-)

spynster57 said...

Gentlemen - and I use that term very loosly - what do your assinine comments have to do with the fact that a woman's health care provider was coldly asassinated for performing legal, safe, tragic but necessary medical procedures? How did this happen in America, where we are supposedly free to make personal health decisions without interference from religion or government? Most of the comments in this thread are pathetic. In my opinion.

Frank Drackman said...

Spinster57,(big surprise) Dr. Tiller was about as much a "Woman's Health Care Provider" as OJ Simpson is... I take that back, OJ only killed one woman as far as we know... He wasn't an OB/GYN, didn't do any training past an Internship, started doin abortions before the ink was even dry on Roe v Wade, only reason he was Board Certified in "Family Practice" was back in the 70's they'd certify anyone with a diploma as long as you had the membership fee. In short, Dr. Tiller was a no-account money grubbing scumbag, call your local "Womens Health Clinic" and see if they'll take a charity case like your local ER has to..
Still he didn't deserve to be killed, thats God's Job...

Frank

Anonymous said...

Born Again Republicans...

The Lord's case for abortion!

EugeneInSanDiego

SeaSpray said...

Eugene..I am a Christian republican and your 8:32 comment hurts and is offensive. :(

Rest assured...I don't think that of you because of our political/religious differences.

Leigh said...

Eugene, that comment was way out of line. We don't have to be assholes; that's the Right's job.

Seaspray, thank you for adding some civility to the discussion. I, too, have no desire to hurt those in opposition to my views. Rebut and discredit, maybe . . . but I'd rather persuade.

SeaSpray said...

Hi Leigh - you defended me.. but then called me an asshole. :)

Hey..So how are you and family. Your grandchild born yet?

I have pics up of Wrenna..new granddaughter born 5/24. 1st set she is 7 days and earlier one.. 3 days old.

Politics-schmolitics...all is right with the world when I look at and/or hold her.

I think of babies as fresh from God ... innocent and pure ready to be shaped.

Anonymous said...

Seaspray;

My view is that Christianity and Republicanism are mutually exclusive concepts.

One is all embracing, the other is selective.

One is based in love and acceptance, the other is based in anger and denial.

One views Jesus as the source of love and peace, the other views Jesus as a god of war.

With the image of Christ tortured and crucified before them; Republicans self-righteously embrace torture and execution.

Having been told to 'Love one another with all your heart" they seethe with hatred and ceaselessly persecute gays.

Having been warned about false gods, they worship political leaders to the point of idolatry.

These are but a few examples of what I see as the transmogrification of Christ's teachings of peace.

Look into your heart, as a christian, can you just close your eyes and accept what republican leadership represents?

If you can, you are certainly a Republican, but are you really a follower of Christ?

You can only be one or the other.

EugeneInSanDiego

Anonymous said...

Here's another example of Republican Christianity:

A pastor in Kentucky is redefining the tradition of wearing your Sunday best to services by encouraging his congregation to strap on holsters and bring their weapons to church.

Pastor Ken Pagano has organized an "Open Carry Celebration" in late June where he encourages members of his Christian church to bring their handguns to services. Pastor

Ken Pagano of New Bethel Church in Louisville, Ky., says that he organized an "Open Carry Celebration" to promote responsible gun ownership.


Anything - ANYTHING at all, passes as love of Jesus among republicans.

/Christianinanity

EugeneInSanDiego

SeaSpray said...

Dear Eugene -I respectfully but so most definitely disagree with your assessment of republicans and Christianity.

You've said so much here that is so misguided.

It's very sad that you really think this.

Do you truly...logically believe that because you list a couple of fringe people that they represent *most* republican Christians?

NO Christian...true Christian sees Jesus as a God of war. There is a time prophesied in the scriptures that he will be... but that is the last war... but I digress. And that war has nothing to do with republicans or democrats but good vs evil.

I am a conservative... a republican.. but not partisan.. but usually lean that way. I guarantee you no one in any church around here would do that. I have never heard of such a thing my whole life and I am 53.

Reverend wright? Talk about inciting people.

Christ's surrender to be crucified can not even be compared to torture with all he endured because it wasn't just the physical..he literally took on all sin, sickness for humanity at that point and experienced a burden no living human being has ever known because of the spiritual component and what that self sacrifice was meant to accomplish.

No republican that I am aware of would ever equate their right to torture because Christ died on the cross. They have nothing to do with each other. I have never ever heard anything like that before on any media sources, anything I've read or in any conversations. That is really off the wall.

As far as seething with hatred... I think there are people on the right AND left who are guilty of that.

I am a Christian and a registered republican and I don't persecute gays.. nor does anyone I know... in either party.

"Having been warned about false gods, they worship political leaders to the point of idolatry. "

Who? We are all guilty at some time of idolizing someone... but specifically who are you speaking of? It seemed to me people had stars in their eyes for President Obama... but that wouldn't cause me to think they didn't respect or love God or weren't people of faith.

Eugene... please correct me if I am wrong but I am thinking you are not a follower of Christ or you would not have made (I am sorry for saying this because I don't want to be offensive) erroneous statements/comparisons.

NONE of what you have said here is true... at all in terms of Republican Christians.

I don't dispute the church services you cite... but that is so not the norm.

You know... I can see that you detest republicans based on what I've read in the past and tonight.

And to me...it seems you are willing to take the worst story you know of..something that would surely be in the minority statistically speaking... and generalize that everyone is that way.

There are things I have heard/read about as far as opinions and actions on the left... and they have scared, alarmed, hurt and angered me... not to mention frustrated me. No doubt we've experienced some of the same feelings from opposite ends of the spectrum.

But I do not for a second assume the entire democratic party is awful because of the psychwacks on the left. Most people... while perhaps having strong differences are still good people and even if they don't agree with my views... I would never assume they couldn't possibly be Christians or whatever faith they profess.

God is no respecter of persons and loves us all and he is neither democrat or republican... but a theocrat. No one political party has the ownership of God and only God himself can know the heart of a person and only he is qualified to judge the relationship between a person and himself.

Anonymous said...

SeaSpray:

You said:
NONE of what you have said here is true...Let’s see:
Wiley Drake, the former vice-president of the Southern Baptist Convention, Said Sunday’s murder of Tiller "an answer to prayer." In a Fox Radio interview, Drake said he was praying the same type of "imprecatory prayer" against Obama. Drake was speaking to some faction of professed Christians in a conservative forum. In your opinion, are they true Christians? Is Wiley Drake Fringe?

John Voight at the 2009 GOP Senate-House Dinner: "We and we alone are the right frame of mind to free this nation from this Obama oppression," "let's give thanks to all the great people like Sean Hannity, Rush Limbaugh, Bill O'Reilly, Laura Ingraham, Mark Levin, William Bennett, Glenn Beck, Hugh Hewitt, Dennis Prager, Michael Medved, Dennis Miller, Dick Morris, Ann Coulter, John Kasich, Michael Steele, Karl Rove, Newt Gingrich, Thomas Sowell, Victor Davis Hanson, Shelby Steele, Charles Krauthammer, Michelle Malkin, Fred Barnes and so many others." All of them are republicans; almost all claim to be Christians. What of Bush's claims that he spoke to God, and God told him to invade Iraq?" Fringe Christianity?”

A recent Gallup poll “Asked who speaks for the Republican Party today?”
Republicans across the country named three men: Rush Limbaugh, Newt Gingrich, and Dick Cheney,”

Bush Republicans gave us deceptions, outright lies, vastly expanded government, deregulated everything they could, financial ruin, trashed the constitution, corrupted the judicial system, spied, tortured and lied us into a ruinous war. What conservative principles/party are left for you to support?

Did your vote enable and defend the Bush administration? If so, you were complicit; is there blood on your hands? If you reject what they did, why identify yourself as a republican and let your name legitimize war criminals? Can you wash your hands of the disasters they wrought by implying the entire republican leadership and vast numbers of Christians are "A couple of fringe people?"

Anonymous said...

SeaSpray Contnd.

You misunderstand my points about torture and execution. I say the example of Christ's torture and execution informs humanity of what Jesus meant when he said "That which you do, to the least of these my brothers, you do to me!" Thus, Quakers reject torture, war and execution because God is in every person, how can you torture, and kill God?

You dismiss me as a "Follower”. If you mean one who accepts the divinity of Jesus, I have doubts, as did some of the early church and many Quakers and Unitarians to this day. His divinity is questionable: his words at Gethsemane reveal fear of what he would suffer. Would God incarnate be unsure of resurrection, what can human pain be to God? If Jesus was mortal, redemption comes because he overcame human doubts and fears - a supreme act of faith. His words and example only count for me.
Some say that if Jesus is not, God, there is no reason to be moral; if his spoken truth and example are insufficient, fervent belief in his godhood will not produce morality. As witness the last eight years.

The Council of Nicea, led by Constantine, changed the Christ I honor, At Nicea, interested individuals traded faith and testimony for power; there, his message of love and faith was transmogrified into one of conquest and worldly power. The council solidified an emerging form of Christianity different from the tradition where Christians had held property communally and one could not be a soldier and a Christian; clearly, not Republican principles. What would Christian Republicans call you if you suggested a return to communal property and pacifism?

Emperor Constantine, knowing well the corruptibility of power, granted the council worldly power, thereby corrupting them; he did not care about their beliefs, he required only their support and loyalty.

Jesus said, “My kingdom is not of this world”; the council said, “Yes it is” and split Christianity. Thus from that time, we have Christians who honor Jesus and Christians who honor party.

My problem is not with Christianity; but with Christians who ignore Christ.

Anonymous said...

SeaSpray,

I posted the above comments in two parts - I was within the 4099 characters but it would not post - it was a work around

EugeneInSanDiego

SeaSpray said...

Eugene- I don't know who wiley drake is and I don't care if people worship him (well I do of they agree with him).. but NO *RESPECTABLE* CHRISTIAN..WAIT..no..MAN/WOMAN of the clergy...would ever say that.

That flies in the face of What we are supposed to do. (Now I am speaking as a Christian because I don't know other religions..although I don't believe that would be condoned in the Jewish faith either. I just don't know what others say. But putting religion aside..just as a human being... it shouldn't be acceptable or encouraged... and certainly not by someone who professes to love and serve God.
God tells us to pray for our leaders.

Again.. no respectable clergy would encourage anyone to pray for the death of someone.. and certainly not our president.

That is disgusting. How short sited on their part for a gazillion reasons but even more importantly..WRONG... and not what any Christian who knows the scriptures would condone.

I also do not for a second believe that these people represent MOST Christians. Certainly no one I know or any churches I have been in or even any of the Christian programs I've watched.

I used to watch a LOT of Christian TV for years and NEVER ever heard any teaching that would encourage that.. but spoke against those things. Admittedly have watched way more talking heads and blogging last couple of years.

Are they real Christians? That is not for me to judge. Only God knows the heart.

I do know there is a scripture that says something like.."But Lord...didn't we pray for the sick and (already forgot it) but basically goes on to say do all these things in your name? and he tells them he never knew them. I don't like taking something out of context... but to me the gist would be...there will be the phony Christians who really don't know God at all and do not represent them. It's like in Jesus' time when he told the Pharisees they were corrupt on the inside even tho they *appeared* religious on the outside.

I am not saying..they are or aren't..I don't know. If they are...they are certainly misguided.

There are no perfect human beings.

I was in a Christian site a couple of nites ago that has a section that says to pray for Obama.

To me he would seem fringe to say that.. but like I said..I don't know of him.

Reverend right is most certainly fringe. Again..he does not preach what Jesus taught with his inflammatory hate. That's not to say he doesn't preach good things but the bad..is really bad.

SeaSpray said...

Eugene-I am not sure what your point is in listing the conservative talking heads. Some people do feel opressed with what's going on in this country. I never heard the word oppression used but it is an oppressive climate in the country..that is for sure but that could be because of all the high unemployment, businesses closing, government owning banks and people worried about their financial future. It's frightening... and I am grateful my husband and older son still have jobs. I hope the domino effect doesn't occur. I don't know all the names you've listed. Younger son has not been able to get a job.. jobs that were a dime a dozen for teenagers. He keeps going back. I think the laid off adults are taking the jobs or hiring freezes.

As far as him doing that..I never heard him say that. I did see on liberal sites that someone else" said he said it"... but it is hearsay. If you can provide me with a youtube link or official document site that I can view his making that statement..I will check it out.

And actually..I do believe he is a Christian. Bush is not evil or fascist. I don't expect anyone to agree.. but Mussalini (sp?) was a fascist.

Christians and people of all faiths make mistakes... that doesn't mean we aren't Christians..it means we are human.

Okay... the rest of your comment in the 1st section... I respectfully, but most definitely disagree with you and we will go tit for tat there and is pointless. I can tell by everything you said where you are coming from... and I very much.. disagree. WAR CRIMINALS... NO way. Blood on my hands? Not in the least.

It is entirely unfair to generalize like that and erroneous accusations anyway..IMO.

All republicans aren't Christians! Logically... also Jewish, atheist, agnostic and whatever. Kust like everyone isn't or isn't a christian democrat.

Eugene..i actually started to right this Friday nite and left it and now it is Sunday morning. I will come back to address the rest.

is this something new w/character limits?

Sid Schwab said...

Seaspray: I can't follow what you are talking about in asking Eugene for a link. To what? If you are referring to that minister who prays for Obama's death, it's here.

The fact is there is unprecedented hate coming from right wingers with unprecedented influence. Rush said Obama and Osama are in a race to see who can destroy the country first. Beck said FEMA was setting up concentration camps. O'Reilly... well, O'Reilly just makes stuff up.

Are there angry people on the left, too? Sure. I don't watch Olberman anymore. But even when he does his self-righteous rants, he has his feet on the ground, uses actual facts on which to base his opinions. There are none of influence on the left calling for the death of anyone. Ann Coulter has.

There's simply no comparison. The right wingers are not interested in facts at all; what ought really to anger you is the extent to which their approach is an insult to you: they assume they can say anything, and you'll buy it. Doesn't that insult your intelligence? When Jonah Goldberg and Glenn Beck claim the guy who killed the guard at the Holocaust Museum is a left winger, don't you at some point have to say, "These guys assume I'm an idiot?"

There are reasons to criticize Obama; he's getting plenty of it from the left, ferchrissakes! But to make stuff up, to say he's a Nazi, he's in league with Osama, he's trying to destroy us... Are there no people respectful enough of you to present you with an actual argument? Is there no point at which you'd demand one?

You think Letterman's joke is worthy of discussion. How about Rush's comment on Chelsea Clinton when she was 13? It's all distraction. It's all to keep you from real issues.

How about the neocons who stated they wanted Ahmadinejad to win, because if the other guy did, it could validate Obama's diplomatic approach? Isn't that hoping for war? Isn't that literally wanting death to Americans in order to preserve political beliefs?

How about the Republican congressman who went to China and told them not to believe Obama on the economy? Would you consider that treason if it had been Pelosi?

Read the news and make your own decisions. Turn off Fox for a couple of weeks and take in the news without taking others' words for it.

SeaSpray said...

Hi Eugene -It is early Sunday afternoon now and so I still can't finish here now..but in reference to blood on our hands... no blood on one's hands can be just as bad as blood on our hands. To turn away from defending, rescuing people in danger, being tortured, brutalized etc., is also wrong.

I believe in strong military to be a deterrent. We can never be perceived as week. I am also a diplomat at heart and believe there should always be negotiations... but there will always be factions that want to take this country down and so we should be gentle as doves (where possible) and wise as a serpent. (Actually Jesus said that)

Walk tall with a big stick. Not use it..but all should know we have the power to do so.

That being said Eugene...I HATE war and evil. Why can't every country in existence just live within their borders and make it the best free society they can for everyone and respect all other nations and we all work together as a global community for the betterment of mankind/this world...while still maintaining our national sovereignty. Imagine if all the money spent on wars everywhere, crime, intelligence agencies all that stuff were channeled into research in medicine, famine, the environment and all the things that we could do to help people, eradicate disease, etc? Oh what a wonderful world it would be!

And then there are the evil ones... that ruin it for everyone and are the reason we can't ever let our guard down or be perceived as weak.

I'll be back later. :)

SeaSpray said...

Drs -you know I am fond of you, your writing and a surgical groupie who can't wait to read your surgical posts again... but you are making me a little crazy with repeatedly stating to stop watching FOX. You started telling me that when I was watching MSNBC.

Now..I am watching FOX and CNN and C-SPAN.

And I really want to pull away... go into a pretend world and just have fun for the summer. Sun, swim, gardening friends family..*the new baby* because this the news...negative news is just wearing my spirit down it is so oppressive and I am beginning to feel like voice of doom and then coupled with the emotions/loss of Mom.. I feel it in my body and it can't be good.

I meant a video of Bush saying God told him to invade. I tried to find it on the web and couldn't.

Last election season you and other people joked/criticized Palin for not knowing where some continent was and the statement had been totally taken out of context by a news reporter. It was splashed all over the Obama press machine and then the reporter owned up to what he had done...too late. I never saw such a bias in my life in the media as with this last election.

So..that is why I am asking for a video or speech transcript where Bush says God told him to invade. I don't trust news sources anymore.

Dr S, I don't know what rush said about Chelsea Clinton. I don't have to know. If he took a swipe at their daughter or anyone's child...it is wrong and I would've hated it.

No one should've bothered about palin's daughter and boyfriend either. They should've been left alone.

It is not right for anyone to target the kids. Politicians..fair game .. but not the kids...just not right.

Two wrongs never make a right.

I would condemn anyone targeting the kids.

But Letterman's sexual joke..was the worst and in very poor taste and an insult to women. And what kind of mindset is that promoting in young males or any males for how to view women? And the trashy stewardess joke...wrong!

Insult to Sarah, stewardesses and women. WRONG!

Don Imus...horrible statement... disgusting statement and not funny.

At least he met with them and apologized and he was fired. Do you remember the big ruckus all over the news.

The silence about Letterman's comment is deafening in the media.

Tell me what you think would've happened if a republican comedian or any republican made that statement. Honestly. They would've been destroyed in the press.

I do like Sean Hannity although sometimes he's too intense. I do think he is a nice man. He IS friends with the dems that I see on his show. He doesn't wish for enemies to die, etc. I see kindness and compassion..whether you disagree with his views or not.

I don't like when he makes fun of the president. I think the president deserves respect. Challenge the issues and speak out by all means... just don't make fun of him.

But that is me... I never make fun of anyone..well maybe me in a post i write about me. I say everyone should stick to the issues and only the issues. I heard Rush make fun of Hillary's hair and pant suits and I hated that too.

And the left..far left said awful things about Bush..even hoping he'd get cancer. But I know...that is the most extreme hateful people and not the main body of the democratic party.

I do not hold the entire party accountable for the whackos.

I agree with some things Ann says when she is making a political point... BUT... I do not like the viciousness... I don't care which side.

SeaSpray said...

Dr S-I think Pelosi is the revised edition for the meaning of treason... so not the best comparison.

Okay..I don't think anyone should work against their government during foreign policy over seas.

A country divided....

We have to have a unified front or enemies will perceive weakness and use it to their advantage.

I don't know anything about the A guy and the neocons and so can't comment.

O'reilly is a blowhard and annoying... but I have to say...he does NOT always take the republican view and plays it down the middle. he calls a spade a spade regardless of party affiliations. Leans right? Yes. He challenged John Voight the other nite and I've seen it countless other times.

And he is always RESPECTFUL of president Obama. Even with the stimulus..he has been giving him the benefit of the doubt. Because I HAVE been watching him... I know it is NOT true that he is only parroting the right wing agenda machine. I would suggest that instead of always complaining about FOX based on your left media interpretations... actually watch some programs and you will see...they are not mean, vicious right politics only political talking heads. Now if you have your opinions because it is what you believe after watching FOX...then you know how I feel when you assume I only watch FOX.

And...I want to ask you and your other anti-FOX readers a sincere question.

Why are you so opposed to the FOX network having their voice...even if it were only promoting right wing agenda 24/7...which it is not. Greta VanSusteren...also very fair reporting... respectful of both sides. recently had Hillary on in the middle east. Does she challenge what she perceives to be wrong? YES? In both parties.

The reason I ask is because the media is extremely biased on MSNBC, than biased on CNN,ABC,NBC,AND CBS. So you have all these other stations supporting your beliefs.. not picking up certain news worthy stories or trying to skew the facts with a conservative. I have seen and heard for myself.. I am not going by anyone else's interpretation. They are very successful in talk radio, but the left has their stations but for whatever reason... they don't do as well.

I have told you how disillusioned I was of our media and fair reporting after this election. Thank God (says me) for a countering voice so at least people have a choice!

But I have wondered. Why can't people on the left tolerate one station..when all the others favor them? Not meant to be a fresh remark at all but rather has been my observation. And even in my personal life.. people say "Ugh that FOX" with such disdain..and yet..now that I am actually *watching*... I am seeing fair and respectful reporting.

Still coming back to finish comment to Eugene. Sun going back in and I want to get out in sun! :)

Sid Schwab said...

Seaspray says "No one should've bothered about palin's daughter and boyfriend either. They should've been left alone."

Right. Like when Sarah trotted out her Down baby all the time? When John McCain made a photo op of meeting Levi at that airport? Talk about wanting it both ways.

Sarah didn't need misquoting or taking out of context. She made it very clear how little she knew of policy; and continues to show how little she knows of economics.

I won't convince you, I know. Nor you me. The difference, however, is where the facts are.

Nor am I "opposed to Fox having their voice." I just think it needs to be seen for what it is: a mouthpiece for the right wing and, when Bush was president, a pipeline for the White House. Even Bush's press secretaries admitted it. What's really rich is how they claim the same about MSNBC; if it were true (you'll see much more criticism of Obama on MSNBC than you ever saw of Bush on Fox), how amazingly cynical of them...

I doubt you can find examples of the left distorting speeches, clipping videos, making patently false statements such as you see with Hannity, Beck, and O'Reilly. It's simply without precedent.

But, once again, I don't expect to convince you, no matter how obvious. Which is why I concluded the whole enterprise is useless.

Sid Schwab said...

PS: Seaspray, enlighten me on Pelosi's treason. That's a strong word, sort of a Fox news statement. Explain.

The deafening silence on Letterman? You mean other than it's being all over the media including liberal sites, the cause celebre? And you don't find it strange that it's suddenly the talk of the right? Tasteless or not, you put it up there with war, deficits, health care, murder of doctors, soldiers, and museum guards? How much time did Hannity give to Letterman vs the shooter at the Holocaust Museum? And why do you suppose that is?

I like you, but it's really frustrating arguing with you. You make no sense. Treason. Letterman. You claim to read the news and make up your own mind. But you come up with Pelosi = treason? Annoying, too partisan, bad speaker, Yes. Treasonous? Unbelievable. Sorry. But it really is.

SeaSpray said...

Dr S. I will come back as it is 01:44 here.

I was being facetious regarding Nancy Pelosi.

I have nothing against her as a person but take issue with her politics. I was joking and sorry that fell flat...which was predictable because I could see how that would be insulting. I don't have Frankie's finesse in that area. :)

But I don't trust hr at all when it comes to military matters.

And I think it is so wrong to release the prison photos and she went along with it. I hope President Obama intervenes. There will be no good purpose served by releasing them but will incite the enemy and they will use as a recruiting tool and it will be tougher on our soldiers.

I do not understand why our concerns don't come first. ?

Actually... the white house came out and said that MSNBC was their favorite and they have favor with them for getting news stories.

Dr S.. I heard them come out against Bush's spending. They do not always go along with their party. Usually..sure.. but so do those that lean left. Fox is the ONLY advocate out there that at least gives another side ...conservative views (but I see them challenge some things too)and I do not believe it is always distorted as you say. If it were not for them..we would not hear it. It is only *one* station compared to all the others favoring the left. That is the way it is.

Dr s, All politicians have their families with them for the presidential election. The children should NOT be attacked. It is wrong.

Even Barbara Walters came out and said that.

It was an egregious joke to brink sex into it involving any of her daughters...for any reason. And it was an insult to all women... that and the trashy stewardess comment.

I already stated here that NO ONE should ever attack the children of the candidates from *either* party. Go after the politician... NOT the family.

The baby is her bABY and family. people loved seeing him and I think it sent a positive message that developmentally disabled children are a blessing to a family. Yes a lot of work and more responsibility... but they are very much loved and have value as human beings.

The left even tried to distort that stating the baby wasn't really hers. I never understood that... why do that?

And as far as her daughter being pregnant...how many of us can throw stones at others. People make mistakes and just because she went against her upbringing...is not the parents fault.

They seem like a very nice and loving family... and don't deserve to be treated the way they have. Disagree with politics..completely fair... but personal attacks are wrong... and I mean that both ways.

The Obama family seems very nice and the Bidens and the McCains and their families should be left alone. Attack the policy... not the kids or spouses.

I think that is fair.

SeaSpray said...

I like you too... so we have that.. a blogosphere friendship.. despite our mostly polar opposite political views.

Can I say something? It's just an observation and perhaps I am wrong.

I've noticed that when you disagree/get frustrated with a conservative view on here... you will say the person doesn't make sense. I know tonight you were questioning the treason and I really was being facetious. I just have so little trust. Actually... I may have just broken my own code of ethics for the sake of a joke...hmmm.

But often times when you have disputed a conservative argument.. you discount it as making no sense or something else along those lines and yet when I read it.. it made perfect sense. Of course you'd say well sure.. because your a conservative.

But remember that post you put up regarding the difference between liberal vs conservative thinkers.

I think sometimes... that is just the way it is... we can not see past our own ideologies which are based on our world perceptions based on how our brains function.

And it is a good thing there is balance because when there isn't... things can go askew.

I am just trying to be fair. I know I am not always right and I am sure you know that you aren't either...at least that is a logical conclusion... but boy don't we really feel that we are?!

NOW..I'm going to sleep. :)

Sid Schwab said...

When I say an idea makes no sense, I believe I back it up with why. For example, when I point out how the Palins and McCains used her family as campaign props, over and over; and then complained when someone joked about it.

Or when Beck talks about concentration camps. Or when Boehner compares the Dem health plan to the department of motor vehicles.

Anonymous said...

Was it something I said?

Just a few comments for now - Seaspray, there are other sources of news than the American media - there's a whole world of opinion out there. More later

Remember: Freedom of the press belong to the man who owns one ... Check into media ownership in our country You may be surprised.

EugeneInSanDiego

SeaSpray said...

Dr S and Eugene -busy..and annoyingly aggravating day so far that is challenging my normally easy going, optimistic spirit. Grr... Sorry..venting... nothing to do with you or politics.

HA! Or can I blame it on peri-menopausal hormones??!

I feel a funny post coming on relating to one of the concerns...my way of getting it out.

Dr S...I don't know who this Boner guy you speak of is.

I take issue with "parading them around" It is their families. That IS what politicians do.

Should she have kept her away..hide her in shame because she got pregnant? I thought we were past all that. It may not have been the optimal situation... but the fact was.. her daughter was unmarried and pregnant.

How many people could be in that boat if the condom broke? I'm just saying.

And think about this... what if?

What if they said..okay Bristol...we need you to stay home now because your being pregnant doesn't look good for the campaign.

First of all...I as a mother...would NEVER hurt my child that way by denying her because she made a mistake..that embarrassed us or the campaign. What a slap in the face and wound to her spirit to reject her because she wasn't "good enough".

No...you make the best of a situation..you may not like it...and most of all...you LOVE your child. I commend them.

But what if they did stay home.

The press would've gotten wind of it..you know that is true. What do you think would've happened if they found out about pregnant Bristol sitting at home?

It would've been ugly in the press. No..they did the best they could do.

The only part that made me wince was for the boyfriend... not used to being in the political limelight walked on that stage at the convention and you know all eyes were on them imagining them having sex. YIKES!

But to do it any other way would've been worse.

palin is no shrinking violet and that shows character and strength.

I know you guys are gnashing your teeth over that statement.

All I am saying here is ..c'mon...please be fair here.

I promise you...I would NOT attack President obama's family. Totally a non issue.

My 2 LEAST favorite American politicians are...and I am pressed to say who holds the #1 spot... but ...Nancy Pelosi and Barney Frank. I can not handle their views, policies and gross lies.

That being said... I would never go after them because of their kids...I would respect their families and never go after their families and I would never go after them because of any screw-ups the kids did.

We do not know what goes on behind closed doors in anyone's home.

Target the politician and THEIR policies. PERIOD.

I even feel sorry for Joe Biden getting picked on because of what he says... but at least it is about him and what he says...which by the way...seems to be a lose cannon sometimes.

Also...i like to watch body language. I am no where near proficient at it... but it seems when the president and he are together... there is some distance... I don't see the love...if you know what I mean.

I guess Biden is like that blond republican VP who screwed up a lot...name escapes me. But I actually like good ol Joe and he has a beautiful family too.

Dr S...people like to see the families. We all do. I love it...on both sides.

Could it be that because she didn't abort her downs syndrome baby (she stated in an interview she was scared (not her words but something like that) and needed to process it... that she angered those on the left who felt that underscored her right to life position, thus bringing the point home every time the baby was with her..and like all babies... he is beautiful.

She made the decision to keep him before she ever knew she'd be asked to run for VP. It was obvious that she lived what she talked..she lived her values.

And on the campaign trail...can you imagine how many people of developmentally children she inspired and gave hope to and demonstrated..this is doable? What a message!

That was a good thing.

SeaSpray said...

But remember... she was living these decisions prior to being asked to be VP.

And she certainly should not have kept the baby away from her or hidden out of sight. UGH! Then I would not respect her... if she did that with her daughter or baby.

But she loves them and so why should they.

They are a very nice family from everything I have seen...which is no more of an inside view than we get on others.

Oh..and even recently... i have heard Sean Hannity COMPLIMENT the president's family and state he wishes them all well and families should be off limits and compliments their two beautiful girls.

Please tell me when you have heard any news liberal commentator compliment Sarah's girls or family. i would like to think that SOMEONE has... but I haven't heard it. Instead...I have heard and read obnoxious.mean spirited remarks.... and that is very sad.

All I am asking for is that we RESPECT the families and because hers were on the campaign trail is NOT an excuse to be cruel and vile toward them. They did what every other politician does during a presidential election.

Sid Schwab said...

"Gross lies." Explain. Examples.

SeaSpray said...

DrS - I don't understand. ? gross lies about what?

SeaSpray said...

what did i say that was a lie? I am sticking up for the families of ALL politicians.
?

Sid Schwab said...

Geez, Seaspray, are you such a reflexive spouter of right-wing noise that you don't even remember what you just wrote:

"My 2 LEAST favorite American politicians are...and I am pressed to say who holds the #1 spot... but ...Nancy Pelosi and Barney Frank. I can not handle their views, policies and gross lies."

You wrote it. I asked you to explain it.

But really, you needn't bother. If I want to know what you think I can listen to Hannity and Beck. Seriously. Every point you make is right off the talking points list that one hears every day.

SeaSpray said...

Barney frank with his taking the republicans to task who expressed concern with Fanny/Freddie and Pelosi agreeing to release the torture pics.

There's other stuff.

and gee Dr S... you know I am not only using them as a news source.

But what did you think of my reasoning regarding why palins family was OUT there on the trail and my reasoning that we should all treat the families of ALL political respect and be hands off and ONLY target the politician ON THE ISSUES.

I am saying the standard has to be raised and I believe we will all benefit from that.

There is just too much nastiness and I have already said...that applies to dems AND reps.


Do you think I am wrong about wanting the families to be respected and to have decency, honor and nobility when it comes to politician's families. What does it say about a society that is willing to sexualize or distort the life of a child or young woman? Or anyone?

That's not fair politics.

I am calling all people out on that nasty behavior.

I am off to a meeting now.

Saw in twitter u have a post up in surgeonsblog. Look forward to reading later. and coming back to Eugene. :)

Sid Schwab said...

The term you used, Ms. Spray, was "gross lies." The examples you gave were neither gross nor lies. They're opinions, which have a basis. If you use words, you ought to be able to back them up. "Taking to task" is hardly egregious; nor does it compare, for example, to Rush saying Obama and Osama are in a race to see who destroys the country first. That's well beyond "taking to task." When Barney argues, he has facts. People disagree. Fair enough. That's how it works. Gross lies? Sorry, you fail.

Pelosi, along with many others, argues that we need to cleanse ourselves of what happened, and take the consequences of showing the photos so it never happens again; and to investigate how it happened, with whose encouragement. I happen to be glad her side did not prevail (about the photos anyway). But it's an argument to be made and to discuss. Not gross lies.

You disagree? Fine. Debate is healthy. Calling them gross liars makes you kin to those from whom you claim to distance yourself. You have drunk the Kool-aid, and you refuse to see it.

I'd be happy to see Congresspeople debating all the hard issues (it's amazing to me that you've not heard of John Boehner, the minority leader of the House of Representatives, if it's true you listen to the news without swallowing whole what you are fed.) But what is called debate nowadays is the screaming and distortions of the RWS™, and such people as Boehner comparing a public option in health care, as proposed and described by Obama, to the DMV. It's cynical. It is, in fact, a gross lie. Why? Based on fact: Obama is NOT proposing a federalization of health care providers. It's a deliberate falsehood to whip up resistance. If there arguments that are factual, why not use them? If you find "gross lies" where there are none, where is your outrage over your leaders and role models when they demonstrably do it?

We'll simply never solve our frightening problems when one side uses words however they choose, and substitutes demagoguery for debate. And when the public (which includes you) doesn't demand better of them.

You ought to read some left-wing political sites. You'd be surprised to see how much straight news there is. Actual information, provided uncolored. And how much criticism of Obama and Congressional Dems there is. There are opinion columns from conservatives. Is there crazy stuff? Yes. Nasty comments. Yes. Like the right wing blogs, although not as racist or antisemitic. But you might learn something; or, at least, have more information on which to base your opinions which, it seems, you have a hard time supporting.

SeaSpray said...

Miss S-P-R-A-Y-Y-Y!

I'm not sure how you meant that... but it's making me smile and that feels good right now. :)

Tired and drained so will come back.

Surreal private town meeting tonight.

Wish I could discuss it openly.

I'll say this...can't believe an illegal business can't be immediately forced to cease and desist. I can't believe we have to be concerned about our health and safety because of this business... who is in gross (proper use of the word gross)violation of the laws. And I can't believe we are possibly putting our lives at risk by confronting..and trying to get it closed down and I wonder if this is why the town and even the DEP are dragging their feet on this.

You never think these things will happen in your back yard. I am ready to become the next Erin Brockovich -east coast! And afraid too.

The man is awaiting trial for allegedly killing his wife and has a major temper. If we succeed... his lively hood will be shut down.. it's downright unnerving and yet in life... sometimes... you just have to do what you have to do because in this case... the alternative is unacceptable.

Sea :)

SeaSpray said...

Do you believe Barney was telling the truth about Fanny and Freddy?

I do not.

I apologize if I was wrong to use the word gross... but he is one of the key people involved in that debacle that set this whole financial crisis spiraling downward.

Pelosi... Do you believe she did not know about the torture when everyone else did with all the knowledge at her disposal? Yes.. I do believe that was a gross lie.

And when she gave that speech explaining it and blaming the CIA..well she would've been better off to not speak.

It doesn't matter though because she got away with it. A republican never would have. But what was egregious about that... is that even thou SHE had knowledge... she was still willing to prosecute the Bush people.

It is not necessary to show the photos so that we don't do something again. We just don't do it. Photos would've inflamed the terrorists and potentially cause more harm to our soldiers. I am glad we agree on that.

I don't know who Bohner is. Maybe by site and never heard name?

I follow news but I am certain not as much as you do.

You said "Like the right wing blogs, although not as racist or antisemitic."

Your calling conservatives (me)racist and antisemetic? Conservatives believe we are supposed to support Israel.

I can't believe you think that...even of Rush or Sean. You must be thinking of skinheads. They do not represent conservatives/mainstream republicans. Those people are DISGUSTING!

Do not ever be like the politicians that are subtly and not so subtly trying to link republicans to the extremists because that is a lie and that upsets me beyond words.

So... do you agree that the families of all politicians should be off limits but everyone?

SeaSpray said...

Eugene -you said "That which you do, to the least of these my brothers, you do to me!" that statement doesn't have to do with the crucifixion but Jesus was saying when you do even the smallest kindness for another person... even the least important people... you are doing it for him. His point was that no action goes unnoticed and for people that want to please him.. they do so by helping others. That is my interpretation, anyway.

There is a time to stand up and fight for what is right. A pacifist would not be a noble person if that pacifism caused them to look the other way when their neighbor was in danger.

We have police and military because there are evil people who have to be kept in line and sometimes much more. That is not wrong in God's eyes.

I didn't dismiss you as a follower because I didn't think you were a Christian.. or one familiar with scriptures based on the wrong misguided statements you have made about the scriptures.

Jesus was feeling the weight/burden of what was about to take place and he did ask if this cup could pass from him and he sweat blood the fear/weight was so heavy.. but out of obedience he obeyed. he was in a mortal body and had spiritual knowledge of what was going to transpire.

he knew where he was going and why he had to do this... to redeem mankind... but it was the getting there that was going to be so tough. And unlike any other human being that has lived... he took on all sickness and all sin for all human existence. He bore our iniquities and he had committed know sin.

I don't fully understand the trinity.. but know someday we all will. Actually... Jesus existed prior to his coming down here. In the old testament.. in Genesis.. when it describes the formation of the world.. it begins with WE. The we was/is God the father and Christ the son. God was the creator and Jesus was the architect. he became mortal when he was conceived in Mary... thus his humanness. It really was a perfect plan to achieve what it was intended to do. If Satan had known what it was... he never would've steered the events leading to the crucifixion. The Holy Spirit is here on earth now... filling in for Jesus. It is the holy spirit that is known as the comforter. But they are also one. But I digress.

One of the awesome things about his being human is that he knows what pain feels like emotionally and physically. He really does understand what we humans experience... good or bad. he was raised with a family. he worked, he taught,he ate and played and worshiped. he did whatever young boys and men did in his culture at the time.

SeaSpray said...

Eugene -There was a Jewish historian..Josephus who wrote about the crucifixion. He wrote about the temple curtain just spontaneously ripping apart at the moment Christ died on the cross... and it got black as night at 3 in the afternoon. That doesn't prove anything, but interesting. I wish I could remember the name of the book about it. Josephus wrote about other things too form a historian's perspective. Jesus-Crucifixion/resurrection just some of it.

Eugene... there is so much neat information about this stuff.

There is ALWAYS a reason to be moral and you certainly don't have to believe in God to be moral. I think our sense of right an wrong is already within us...our conscience. But I also believe we were created to fellowship with God. I must sound holier than thou and believe me I am not and am a work in progress.

I think you have a disconnect in reasoning when you compare the previous administration to these incorrect religious standards you speak of.

There was a period of time the Catholic church had become corrupt and that is why the protestant reformation occurred. man often does things that God has no part of and then he gets the blame.

You said "What would Christian Republicans call you if you suggested a return to communal property and pacifism?"

That is a moot point because it wouldn't happen. It is not feasible on a world wide scale.

You have to be strong militarily to be a deterrent. Walk tall with a big stick. It's one thing if you want to be a pacifist and it only affects you... but if that causes you not to stick up for, or help someone in need... then that is wrong.

You said "Jesus said, “My kingdom is not of this world”; the council said, “Yes it is” and split Christianity. Thus from that time, we have Christians who honor Jesus and Christians who honor party."

That statement is out of context with scripture and your explanation is wrong.

Jesus' kingdom is the world to come in life with him. That was what the disciples misunderstood at first. they thought he intended to overthrow the Romans. Judas especially thought/wanted that... but Jesus always meant his kingdom with God the father... not of this world.

"My problem is not with Christianity; but with Christians who ignore Christ."

I respectfully disagree with how you state conservatives are not Christians because of their political beliefs.

But...you are right in that there are many people who call themselves Christians who ignore Christ. I know you mean politically and I mean generally... politicians (both sides of the aisle), people of all professions and all walks of life.

We are all so human and none of us are infallible.

*I guess I stayed and typed after all... with Melatonin in me and so my apologies for any errors. Off to bed now. :)

Sid Schwab said...

Seaspray: you need to learn to read what is said without assuming things. When I said the bit about racist and antisemitic, it should have been clear from the context that I was referring to comments on blogs. By people who comment on blogs. Get it? Not a statement about "all" anyone. See? Free your mind from the poison.

Do I think politicians' families should be off limits? Depends. Geraldine Ferarro's husband? As to children, well, I guess it also depends. When the McCain campaign chose to make Levi a hero for knocking someone up and not using a condom and Sarah allowed it, I'd say that removes the wall. When she made a big issue of her "choice" (ironic, no?) not to abort Trig, I'd say the wall is down. When she refers, over and over, to her son going to Iraq (McCain, to his credit, downplayed his son, and even asked Obama not to mention him when he spoke at Annapolis), I'd say the wall is removed.

Sarah Palin used her kids all the time. She can't have it both ways. Sure, the pregnancies -- both of them -- would have come up. But she could have made it clear she had nothing to say about any of it, if she so chose. She used them shamelessly as campaign props. Her choice. Wall down.

Nancy Pelosi annoys the hell out of me. I hate listening to her; I wish she weren't Speaker. Did she lie about the CIA briefings? We don't know; except that several others who were at the meetings have confirmed her rendition.

You ask if Barney Frank was telling the truth about Fanny/Freddy? When he said what?

Finally, I'm getting tired of this thread. It's the same stuff, back and forth, over and over. So respond how you choose. You get the last word. I'm done.

SeaSpray said...

Well..I don't want the last word..if it's forfeited to me..that's no fun. ;)

It does seem to me that the lefts views about Palin are so strong that anything she does will be looked at with distrust and repulsion. She did what any politician family does. The press would never have left her alone about the pregnancies and they would've exaggerated and lied.. just like they did with the truth in front of them.

We will never agree on this point. I will continue to speak out against abusing the families and that means I will always stick up for the democrat's family too.

I think people do that because they just don't know what else to do. They don't have substance and so they go after whatever they can. (BOTH sides do that)I just loathe personal attacks.

Interestingly... Letterman is now coming out with a major apology. Only took a week.

And Joy Behar (the view)changed her position NOW and stated that she did what a mother would do and basically acted as if she supported her now. but last week she was saying what you are saying.. that she parading her kids out there and is fair game.

And even Al Sharpton came out and said it was wrong and people are offended. So I *hope* that this will remind people to be more respectful and you do not, do NOT sexualize young girls that way, nor is it right to offend women by calling a prominent one slutty.

I'm ready to move on too. looking forward to your other blog. I did read it last night -enjoyed it of course and will comment later.

I don't know about Ferraro's husband. ?

I vaguely remember comedians making fun of Carter's brother because he drank but I didn't start paying attention until Clinton's 2nd run.

You'll hate that I am saying this... but in HS..I loved Nixon and Henry Kissinger. Most teens were protesting then. I protested the protests. :)

I have something funny to tell you but it would probably make you crazy and you'd feel it underscore's your point..but really..i just fell for the joke thinking it was real.. naive sometimes. :)

Anonymous said...

SeaSpray;

Not a lot of time - more later.

Here are partial text and links to full text.

EugeneInSanSiego

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2005/oct/07/iraq.usa


George Bush: 'God told me to end the tyranny in Iraq'

President told Palestinians God also talked to him about Middle East peace

The Guardian, Friday 7 October 2005

George Bush believes he is on a mission from God, according to the politician Nabil Shaath. P

George Bush believes he is on a mission from God, according to the politician Nabil Shaath. Photograph: Charles Dharapak/AP
George Bush has claimed he was on a mission from God when he launched the invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq, according to a senior Palestinian politician in an interview to be broadcast by the BBC later this month.

Mr Bush revealed the extent of his religious fervour when he met a Palestinian delegation during the Israeli-Palestinian summit at the Egpytian resort of Sharm el-Sheikh, four months after the US-led invasion of Iraq in 2003.

One of the delegates, Nabil Shaath, who was Palestinian foreign minister at the time, said: "President Bush said to all of us: 'I am driven with a mission from God'. God would tell me, 'George go and fight these terrorists in Afghanistan'. And I did. And then God would tell me 'George, go and end the tyranny in Iraq'. And I did."

Mr Bush went on: "And now, again, I feel God's words coming to me, 'Go get the Palestinians their state and get the Israelis their security, and get peace in the Middle East'. And, by God, I'm gonna do it."

See full story at the link

http://www.counterpunch.org/hamilton05222009.html



In 2003 while lobbying leaders to put together the Coalition of the Willing, President Bush spoke to France’s President Jacques Chirac. Bush wove a story about how the Biblical creatures Gog and Magog were at work in the Middle East and how they must be defeated.

In Genesis and Ezekiel Gog and Magog are forces of the Apocalypse who are prophesied to come out of the north and destroy Israel unless stopped. The Book of Revelation took up the Old Testament prophesy:

“And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle … and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.”

Bush believed the time had now come for that battle, telling Chirac:

“This confrontation is willed by God, who wants to use this conflict to erase his people’s enemies before a New Age begins”.


See full story at the link


http://www.bbc.co.uk/pressoffice/pressreleases/stories/2005/10_october/06/bush.shtml


http://www.vancouverite.com/featured/bush-god-iraq-and-gog-was-religion-motivation-for-war/


http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/12/world/middleeast/12prexyweb.html?_r=2&ref=world&pagewanted=print&oref=slogin

Heather said...

I find it interesting that when talking about abortion with people of opposing viewpoints, the conversation always leads into a discussion about religion.

I do have a question for all of you. Have any of you read the comments made from the patients that Doctor Tiller treated?

http://jezebel.com/5275849/tillers-patients-speak-the-tragedy-of-his-death-the-inspiration-of-his-life

Sid Schwab said...

Heather, I've read those stories. Hardly the picture of a monster.

I'm not surprised it always ends up with religion, because it's only religionists who make no distinction between a fertilized egg and a viable fetus.