Tuesday, February 2, 2010

Well Said


This guy says what I've been saying and puzzling about for a long time: the Tea Party people are happily, credulously, incomprehensibly doing harm to themselves. Not to mention destroying rest of us, too.
.

16 comments:

SeaSpray said...

I will have to check when I do our taxes ..but the guy seems to bypass all the actual concerns, the pork, the bribery, the needed tort reform, government officials not knowing what is in the bill, ins plans being taxed an additional 45% and then the president's favorite union .. being exempted from the 45% tax.

And why not open up the borders so people could shop for their best deal? Why did the administration make backroom deals with hospitals, pharmaceutical companies and unions? And aren't they critical of the pharma companies?

And why didn't they include republicans in the meetings? They do have ideas and want reform. This should be a bipartisan effort which the president initially said he wanted and then they weren't even consulted. Anyone can look up proposed republican ideas. Why did the president try to RUSH something so important as the health care bill in *August* when he and his other party members didn't know everything about it? Something so SERIOUS affecting all of us and they wanted to RUSH it through. Would you plan your finances that way? And why are these pork things in a HEALTH CARE reform bill ..tennis courts and I don't even remember the NONSENSE .. but it seems that these monies should be doing to HEALTH CARE System and that was the main concern ..the uninsured.

The people protesting from all political camps .. *want* insurance reform ..but NOT the corrupt monstrosity the administration was trying to rush through ..without even KNOWING what was in it. We wouldn't let our kids make decisions like that... uneducated decisions that would cause harm to the people of this country. It was wrong.

The idea ..is NOBLE.

The way they acted on it..irresponsible and disingenuous and the way they handled this was just plain wrong and I am grateful the people stood up.

I am glad people are waking up and paying attention. YAY for freedom of speech in America.

I don't think people should lose their homes to pay med bills,should not be denied for preexisting conditions, should be able to have continuity of insurance if they choose and this I saw on a republican site :"Cover young adults: A large portion of the uninsured are people who cannot afford coverage after they have "aged out" of their parents' policies. Permitting young people to stay on their parents' plans longer would reduce the number of uninsured and keep healthy people in insurance risk pools -- helping to lower premiums for everyone. "

Our younger son will be 22 and off our plan this year and in this situation because he is still going to be in college.

We are for reform ..but not the way they did it.

Chuck Sigars said...

Yup. What's The Matter With Kansas Syndrome. Very well said. "Me hates taxes!" had stuff coming out my nose; God I needed a laugh today.

Sid Schwab said...

Seaspray: practically every one of those talking points, so ubiquitous on Fox "News," have been addressed and refuted or explained. But, as is the case with all the Tea Partiers, it's simply lost on you and them. You have your "narrative." Ain't no facts that'll change it. It's amazing, really. Predictable and amazing. And destructive. A long list of complaint, which will never be changed no matter the facts. An empty list of solutions.

Party on.

SeaSpray said...

Dr Schwab ..then since you understand ..could you please enlighten me ..because those are valid concerns. If they are not true ..then please give me more clarity on this ..why do you think it was all handled well? If I remember correctly you did disagree with the back room deals and so then you can't *fairly* tell me "practically every one of those talking points, so ubiquitous on Fox "News," have been addressed and refuted or explained."

IT'S NOT TRUE: that the EARLY August date wasn't rushing this?

That there was all this added pork in the bill that had nothing to do with Health Care other then being in the bill?

The payoff to Nebraska for lifetime free medicaid that would be subsidized by all the other states isn't true?

The Louisiana deal with the Republican senator for her vote isn't true ..didn't happen?

They have not agreed to address tort reform?

They didn't say they are taxing ins plans 45%? (I really worried about that one because we have a decent plan and would be penalized)

They didn't excuse the union from having to be taxed the 45% on ins plans when the rest of us would have to? That didn't happen?

They didn't make back room deals excluding republicans? They didn't make these deals with hospitals, pharmaceuticals, tort lawyers and unions?

They didn't admit to not knowing what was in the bill or understanding? When people actually heard the senator with his own words admit that he didn't know what was in it..we didn't understand what he said?

All the money shouldn't go to the health care reform instead of pork?

Do you really think tea party people, myself, conservatives don't want health care reform?

Obama has been transparent with how he handled this ..on c-span as he campaigned he would? he did do that?

The republicans really have not offered any valid proposals of their own? We can't google anywhere to read there Ideas that were not even discussed?
The idea about older kids staying on policies is a republican idea.

Dr S ..I want both parties to work together on health reform.

DID you agree with that bill? Did you think they handled it well ..honestly and fairly?
None of those really happened?

If these are mostly lies ..could you please tell me what the truth is?

Are you saying opening up the state borders letting people and small businesses shop for their own policies is a bad idea? Isn't it the competition in a free market that will foster better quality plans with the best deals?

And please don't blow me off as a using FOX as my only information source. I read other news sources and I also watch C-Span and CNN. I feel like you do that whenever I have credible questions. They are genuine concerns and evidently Ma, VA and my mostly blue state, NJ seem to have concern too.

SeaSpray said...

I am asking questions. I am stating I want to see *both* parties to work together. And I am stating I want to see health reform. I understand it has to be fixed and so do people from all parties. Besides ..it appears even their own party is at odds with what they were doing. Are they stupid too? Was Jon Stewart stupid for calling the party out on some things?

Do you think I think all republicans are above reproach? Do you think I am that partisan and stupid to believe that?

I think you do..and that is too bad. Someone disagrees and you say FOX as if any disagreement is committing a foul... as if I can't think for myself.

I am sorry if I am annoying you with this ..but I feel you are unfair when I ask sincere and important questions. I am thinking it's because there is validity to what I am saying and the easiest thing is to say FOX! and then be demeaning. if you go back in anything I have ever written here ..you will see that I have never once ..not once (because that is who I am) ever said anything derogatory, insulting or demeaning about you or any of your commentators... and I never will. I question policy and ideas ..but I am always respectful... and willing to listen ..or I wouldn't come in here.

Frank Drackman said...

Hey Sid, I know "Citizens United" is only a few weeks old, but you can write your own stuff every so often.
I mean, the First Ammendment still applys, might wanta take advantage of it while you still can, I mean with all those Labor Unions able to spend as much as they want for Political donations the bandwidth might get pretty pricy...
Oh yeah, your an AUTHOR, you don't write nuthin' for Free...

Frank, "331 days till the Bush Tax Cuts Expire" Drackman

Sid Schwab said...

Seaspray, it's a long list. Let me pick a few.

Did you hear the president's comments about cross border insurance (you'd have had to watch something other than Fox, of course)? Did you hear his comments on tort reform?

Have you read what I've said about the Congressional Ds and the health care bill?

Have you heard what economists have said about the R health care reform "plans" in terms of economic feasibility?

What is "rushing" other than a RWS™ talking point? How much time, exactly, is right? How long have Democrats been trying to reform health care; how long have Rs been blocking it? When the Rs had the White House and both houses of Congress (you may have forgotten, but it was only a handful of years ago, why didn't they do anything about it? Where were their brilliant ideas then?

What positive proposals to the Tea Baggers have? Actual ideas of what would help, rather than what they're pissed off about? (Other than, of course, seeing Obama's birth certificate.)

Do I agree with the bill? Well, Seaspray, as is the case in a democracy, there are things I like and things I don't. Do you think it should be only what YOU like? Would you rather teabag than have rules that prevent disallowance for pre-existing conditions? Lifetime limits? Loss of care when you lose a job? Allowing states to try different ideas? Would you rather, like Bush's drug bill, it not be paid for? Did you object to that bill which was a huge giveaway to drug companies?

It's America, Seaspray. It's messy. People can't get everything they want. I wish they could, and that the "they" would be me. Tea Baggers are like kids having a tantrum in the supermarket aisle.

Sid Schwab said...

As to your second comment, Seaspray:

Criticism, as I've said a million times and a million ways, it's what makes democracy work. It's when the criticism is mindless, based on falsehoods and deceptions of the sort that constantly stream from Fox "News" that democracy doesn't work, and is at fundamental risk.

And yes: based on most of your comments, I think you've swallowed whole the plate of poop that Fox, and most particularly Glenn Beck and Sean Hannity put on your table every day. You repeat, practically line for line, what they say. And what they say isn't pure falsehood, it's a distraction, to keep you thinking certain things are important.

Of course there are concerns. But when there are still people claiming Obama's ideas on health care reform represent a government takeover or socialism, it says many of those with concerns have been buffaloed. If not by Fox and Glenn, then by whom?

Throckmorton said...

This is why we Tea Baggers are around.

From economist Steven Landsberg, an old WSJ op-ed in fable form:



Once upon a time, a man went to work and earned a dollar. He used the dollar to buy a share of stock. The stock paid a dividend of 10 cents a year, 10% being the going rate of return in the land.



Thanks to wise corporate management, the dividend eventually doubled to 20 cents a year, causing the stock price to double as well. The man sold his share for $2, which he put in the bank. Eventually, his children inherited the money and reinvested it in the same company. They used their 20-cent annual dividend to purchase goods and services, happily ever after.

That was a fairy tale. Here is the reality:

Once upon a time, a man went to work and earned a dollar. After paying state and federal income taxes, he was left with 50 cents. He used the 50 cents to buy half a share of stock. When the stock price doubled, he sold his half-share for a dollar, paid a 10-cent tax on the capital gain, and put the remaining 90 cents in the bank. Eventually, his children inherited the money, paid 50 cents in inheritance tax, and reinvested the remaining 40 cents in the original company.

The company continued to earn a 10% rate of return, of which half went to pay corporate income and excise taxes. The children therefore received an annual dividend of 5%, which came to two cents a year. After paying personal income tax on the dividend, they were left with a penny a year in income. They used part of that penny to purchase goods and services, and the rest to pay sales taxes.

Okay, that's a worst-case scenario. There are many things the man could have done to reduce his family's tax burden. He could have chosen an investment that paid no dividends. He could have held his stock instead of selling it, accepting some extra risk. He could have spent everything he had before he died. For that matter, he could have chosen not to go to work in the first place. But the fact remains that after a series of perfectly reasonable economic choices, this family lost 95% of its income to taxes.

Sid Schwab said...

Well, Throckmorton, all the teabaggers need to do is propose a tax schedule and corresponding spending schedule that works; that provides for the country's needs, balances the budget, allows for growth, education, fixing potholes, and an appropriate level of defense.

Far as I can recall that only happened once in recent times: under a Democratic president. Over the screams of Republicans.

So, yeah, I don't like paying taxes either. I'd like to have kept 100% of everything I earned, while having all my needs met in terms of public education, police, roads, etc, etc.

All the teabaggers have to do is come up with a workable plan, instead of taking to the streets with pitchforks and no actual ideas. And while they're at it, they might insist the Rs in Congress do the same.

SeaSpray said...

Part I

"Did you hear the president's comments about cross border insurance Did you hear his comments on tort reform?"

Dr S - He can comment all he wants just like he commented about being transparent on c-span, but those things were NOT in the bill they trued to RUSH through.

Action speaks louder than words.

"Have you read what I've said about the Congressional Ds and the health care bill?"

Yes ..I know you weren't happy with some things and I told you I know you wrote something but didn't recall exactly.

"Have you heard what economists have said about the R health care reform "plans" in terms of economic feasibility?"

Sources? Also .. if the president is agreeing about tort reform and opening the state boarders than ..is he wrong too? or is it that the republicans may have some good ideas? Opening borders would create competition. thus quality and cost effectiveness... just one of their ideas.

"What is "rushing" other than a RWS™ talking point? How much time, exactly, is right? How long have Democrats been trying to reform health care; how long have Rs been blocking it? When the Rs had the White House and both houses of Congress (you may have forgotten, but it was only a handful of years ago, why didn't they do anything about it? Where were their brilliant ideas then?"

Okay ..this is where I laughed out loud regarding the "rUshing".

They did not take the "time" to learn and fully comprehend the bill. It was slipshod. They have 4 years and yet he wanted something so important that would be so expensive and affect every American and was NOT a good bill. If no one opposed that monstrosity.. we'd all be stuck with it now.

We are not talking about previous administrations.

Your doing that is like my sons coming in the house when they were young and to justify their bad behavior, they tell me their friend did it too. I didn't care what their friend did, but I sure as heck cared what my sons were doing in the moment... and I let them know that wouldn't wash with me.

That being said ..I am not excusing republicans for past behavior ..but *this is 2010*, this administration is in power and by the way, until Scott Brown ..they had ALLLL the power and still didn't get it done. AND.. If this is a BAD bill ..what happened under another administration does NOT automatically mean that the people should be happy with something that was put together half__ , with no understanding/knowledge of it's contents and the future ramifications for this country and it's people.

My aunt Janet used to say "Patrica..2 wrongs don't make a right."

SeaSpray said...

Part II

"What positive proposals to the Tea Baggers have? Actual ideas of what would help, rather than what they're pissed off about? (Other than, of course, seeing Obama's birth certificate.)"

The birth certificate thing is ridiculous. At first it got my attention, but then when I heard more about it I forgot about it. matter of fact.. just tonight, O'Reilly when talking with Jon Stewart talked about the birth thing and said that his office investigated and found his original birth announcements in 2 Hawaiian newspapers and the only way that was false is they'd have to know ahead of time that Barak would be president someday. Now that sounds fair and balanced to me. is it to you?

I left an answer to this but you didn't post it. So..I will say it again.

**It is the job of the politicians who were voted in by their constituents and who are paid to do the job, to listen to the people and find a solution. And..I am not saying solutions were not offered.. I am saying it is the politician's JOB to do the thinking and the work. THAT is what they are paid for. I remember one sm business woman in SanFrancisco ..no less and got huge applause from the people in attendance, who explained her insurance situation and gave a compelling argument for open borders. So..I guess that was one teabagger. Logically there are more... but regardless ..the government works for the people and they have been entrusted to do what's good for the country. But the beauty of this country ..is free speech and the people were respectful and heard. And if they yelled. So what? they are upset at being steamrolled with bad ideas. they were not violent. And please ..anyone holding up the left wing lunatic type signs or right wing screamers signs do not represent the masses of decent folk and no one can no for sure if they are plants from either side. Those signs mean nothing and are NOT representative of the masses...thank God.

"Do I agree with the bill? Well, Seaspray, as is the case in a democracy, there are things I like and things I don't. Do you think it should be only what YOU like? Would you rather teabag than have rules that prevent disallowance for pre-existing conditions? Lifetime limits? Loss of care when you lose a job? Allowing states to try different ideas? Would you rather, like Bush's drug bill, it not be paid for? Did you object to that bill which was a huge giveaway to drug companies?"

Dr S - where did I ever say the bill should be what *I* like? I think those are *great ideas* and did I not mention allowing older college students staying on their parent's plan? Tort reform? open borders? Go back and read my 1st comment here. And ..I certainly don't have all the answers so trying to lay it on me as if I should is hardly fair. I don't know how much more open I can be..but because I disagree with rushed monstrosity in which they didn't KNOW what was in it (it's THEIR responsibility to KNOW what is in it)and ALLLLL the added pork costing billions of dollars that had nothing to do with it ..I'd say someone has to act responsibly and the teabaggers spoke out and Scott will be an MA senator tomorrow.

It's America, Seaspray. It's messy. People can't get everything they want. I wish they could, and that the "they" would be me. Tea Baggers are like kids having a tantrum in the supermarket aisle.

Not true about the teabaggers. They are decent people from all socioeconomic levels, ages, sexes and parties who are fed up and concerned for themselves and America.

And isn't it wonderful ..that with satellites, people around the world saw democracy in action, saw the effectiveness of peaceful protests (they weren't wearing masks and breaking windows like at the Summit) as demonstrated by the fact the bill did not pass and they weren't shot for their dissenting opinions?

Sid Schwab said...

Thank you for sharing your opinions.

SeaSpray said...

Your welcome Dr S.

Sid Schwab said...

My welcome?

SeaSpray said...

Okay wise guy ..I see the error of my ways. :)

i stand corrected.

You're Welcome. :)

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